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Mock Draft-First Attempt 
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Post Re: Mock Draft-First Attempt
cblaz11 wrote:
After watching a few of McGlincheys games, I absolutely think he can play LT.


cblaz, did you happen to watch Nelson who was the OG right next to him. Did you see the same bull in a china shop I did? I was focusing on both when I watched the Stanford game and he seemed to be that guy that goes balls out but way out of control. I specifically remember seeing on three plays where a guy was on the ground and he would just jump on him. Twice, there was already a ND player on the guy so he wasted his skills on something already taken care of on the play. Just seemed to out of control for me.

Also, as Rich said, you could grab a OG anywhere really and I have always like the idea of a past LT sliding into LG because of mobility.


Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:33 am
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Post Re: Mock Draft-First Attempt
I didn't watch him then, but went back and checked him out after your post. So far, I like him but he's a guard, I don't think he has the athleticism to play OT. That's fine, I loved David Decastro coming out but there was no way he could play tackle either but he is a great OG.

When I watch Nelson and McGlinchy, the diference is pretty drastic. McGlinchy is just a more refined talent with better size and feet. Nelson will be good, but can he be a tackle..no. McGlinchey worst case, will be a good guard.


Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:51 am
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Post Re: Mock Draft-First Attempt
Also, it looks like Nelson played LT at Norte Dame and was moved inside.


Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:59 am
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Post Re: Mock Draft-First Attempt
cblaz11 wrote:
Also..when a OT fails, where does he go? Teams move him inside to guard...lol



Hell even when they don't fail teams move them.......Guys get drafted all the time 3 year starter at LT......don't see a snap at LT even in the mini-camps

To me the most obvious version was watching Mike Iuapati at Senior Bowl practices.......He was just dominating people in the one on ones when he was at Guard (and these are drills that favor the Defender)

They move him out to Tackle and he wasn't all that great.

Offensive Line play (*Center being the oddball to an extent) is basically a spectrum akin to Baseball's Defensive spectrum and players 99.9% move one way along that spectrum.

Anything that makes you a good Tackle will also make you a good Guard. You just need less of the Ven diagram of skills to play Guard (not to say no skills)

Additionally the skills you need for Tackle are the harder skills to find and work on.


Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:12 am
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Post Re: Mock Draft-First Attempt
Spoken like a guy who's never played offensive line before lol...didn't we have this discussion last offseason when we were arguing the merits of moving Whitehair around? Based on his regression, I feel like the folks who argued that he should be left to excel at his best position were validated in that opinion.

Great guards have a specific skill set and physical traits that Tackles don't have. Personally, I was able to play tackle fairly well, but I struggled mightily at guard. Smaller guys could get leverage on me with ease at Guard. Everything moves a fraction faster at Guard, you have less space to operate, short area burst/power is valued over length and quick feet. Length is a disadvantage at Guard, but an advantage at Tackle. Why are Tackles valued more you ask? Simple, there are less guys on the planet that possess the physical traits of an ideal Tackle vs guys that possess the physical traits ideal for a Guard. You can bulk up and get stronger, but you can't lift weights to get longer.

Of course guys are capable of moving around and there's lots of examples that go against the common thinking here, but in general, these things are true and those examples are exceptions to the standard rule of thumb.

Finesse tackles can't play Guard (i.e. Leno Jr). Massie is a mauler, he might be able to make the move and might benefit from it, but we've never seen him try and I bet there's a good reason for that - he probably sucks worse at G than he does at RT.


Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:18 pm
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Post Re: Mock Draft-First Attempt
dplank wrote:
Spoken like a guy who's never played offensive line before lol...didn't we have this discussion last offseason when we were arguing the merits of moving Whitehair around? Based on his regression, I feel like the folks who argued that he should be left to excel at his best position were validated in that opinion.

Great guards have a specific skill set and physical traits that Tackles don't have. Personally, I was able to play tackle fairly well, but I struggled mightily at guard. Smaller guys could get leverage on me with ease at Guard. Everything moves a fraction faster at Guard, you have less space to operate, short area burst/power is valued over length and quick feet. Length is a disadvantage at Guard, but an advantage at Tackle. Why are Tackles valued more you ask? Simple, there are less guys on the planet that possess the physical traits of an ideal Tackle vs guys that possess the physical traits ideal for a Guard. You can bulk up and get stronger, but you can't lift weights to get longer.

Of course guys are capable of moving around and there's lots of examples that go against the common thinking here, but in general, these things are true and those examples are exceptions to the standard rule of thumb.

Finesse tackles can't play Guard (i.e. Leno Jr). Massie is a mauler, he might be able to make the move and might benefit from it, but we've never seen him try and I bet there's a good reason for that - he probably sucks worse at G than he does at RT.



Idiocracies of yours aside.

This is not how it has worked in the Pros for ....20 + years. Probably longer.

You do have less space as a Guard. But there are less paths for the D to take as well......so footspeed isn't paramount. You can add strength easier than the Tackle traits WHICH YOU AGREE WITH. Jesus.

And Arm length is ABSOLUTELY an advantage at EVERY OL position. That was one of the things that Hannah (one of the best Guards ever) credited with hus success (as he put it - He could itch his feet without having to bend over)

You think short area burst isn't a need for a Tackle?????

And we had Chris Williams. The definition of a "Finesse" Tackle. He failed at Tackle but ultimately had a solid career as a Guard.


The NFL is replete with examples of guys who were ok to bad at Tackle who became above average to very good/great at Guard.

The College to Pro transition is replete with Tackles who became Guards

The High School to College transition is replete with Tackles who became Guards

I mean sure...the occasional guy can play Tackle but not Guard. But it's fucking rare at this level. Those guys tend to be weeded out long before the Pros. And/or they just play Tackle.

Here's what coaches are basically never thinking: Well he's a good Tackle...I wonder how he'd be at Guard?!?!?!?


Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:16 pm
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Post Re: Mock Draft-First Attempt
Chris Williams had a solid career? You mean that one season he started for the Rams?

Bellamy and Acho might not "belong" as starters in regular sets but they have certainly proved they can fill in there. They've both performed better in regular sets than Chrissie Williams ever did.


Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:29 pm
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Post Re: Mock Draft-First Attempt
RichH55 wrote:
dplank wrote:
Spoken like a guy who's never played offensive line before lol...didn't we have this discussion last offseason when we were arguing the merits of moving Whitehair around? Based on his regression, I feel like the folks who argued that he should be left to excel at his best position were validated in that opinion.

Great guards have a specific skill set and physical traits that Tackles don't have. Personally, I was able to play tackle fairly well, but I struggled mightily at guard. Smaller guys could get leverage on me with ease at Guard. Everything moves a fraction faster at Guard, you have less space to operate, short area burst/power is valued over length and quick feet. Length is a disadvantage at Guard, but an advantage at Tackle. Why are Tackles valued more you ask? Simple, there are less guys on the planet that possess the physical traits of an ideal Tackle vs guys that possess the physical traits ideal for a Guard. You can bulk up and get stronger, but you can't lift weights to get longer.

Of course guys are capable of moving around and there's lots of examples that go against the common thinking here, but in general, these things are true and those examples are exceptions to the standard rule of thumb.

Finesse tackles can't play Guard (i.e. Leno Jr). Massie is a mauler, he might be able to make the move and might benefit from it, but we've never seen him try and I bet there's a good reason for that - he probably sucks worse at G than he does at RT.



Idiocracies of yours aside.

This is not how it has worked in the Pros for ....20 + years. Probably longer.

You do have less space as a Guard. But there are less paths for the D to take as well......so footspeed isn't paramount. You can add strength easier than the Tackle traits WHICH YOU AGREE WITH. Jesus.Not really, when you actually play you realize that there just aren't that many combos to consider. A guy is either coming inside or outside, left or right. That's about it. The space comes into play because at T you have open space to your off shoulder and the defender typically has to take at least one step before contact (unlike at G), so you have a better chance to adjust your body for impact and anchor. At Guard, you better anchor immediately or you'll get bowled over.

And Arm length is ABSOLUTELY an advantage at EVERY OL position. That was one of the things that Hannah (one of the best Guards ever) credited with hus success (as he put it - He could itch his feet without having to bend over)

You think short area burst isn't a need for a Tackle????? Strawman. Short area burst is important at all positions on the football field. However, it's more important at G than T.

And we had Chris Williams. The definition of a "Finesse" Tackle. He failed at Tackle but ultimately had a solid career as a Guard.
He was better at Guard because of his TRex arms. Very odd build on that guy. I was anticipating this example BTW and I suspect you've based a majority of your thinking on this one example.

The NFL is replete with examples of guys who were ok to bad at Tackle who became above average to very good/great at Guard.
Not as many as you think, try listing them and see what happens

The College to Pro transition is replete with Tackles who became Guards
Yes, a necessity of the physical trait aspect. As you move up a level, 6'5 becomes average height instead of being the tallest guy on the field, so your physical match to position is likely to change. This is really the best example of my point, not yours. How many times have you heard a guy who played T in college that projects as a G in the pros...a hundred? Now, what is the #1 reason why you hear that? Because of his BODY TYPE. Not because of his skill level, because of his BODY TYPE. Able to get by in college, but not the Pros...

The High School to College transition is replete with Tackles who became Guards
See above. I was 6'4 in High School and the biggest guy out there most of the time. I tried to walk on at Maryland and, ummmm, didn't belong. As you move up levels, everything changes including how your physical traits translates to the position you'll play.

I mean sure...the occasional guy can play Tackle but not Guard. But it's fucking rare at this level. Those guys tend to be weeded out long before the Pros. And/or they just play Tackle. So, you think that Leno could play Guard in the NFL? No fucking way man, no fucking way.

Here's what coaches are basically never thinking: Well he's a good Tackle...I wonder how he'd be at Guard?!?!?!?
Correct! But you just miss why...the NFL is extremely specialized. It gets more and more specialized as you move up from HS to College to Pro. When you draft a guy, you draft him to a position that matches his physique as best you can project his adult body type as he ages. It's an inexact science that occassional people get wrong, and that's usually when you see people move like Chris Williams. This is also why you have a special position on your roster called Swing Tackle. It's because you have a guy physically built/trained to be a T as your primary backup there instead of moving a Guard over. Specialized.


Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:33 pm
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Post Re: Mock Draft-First Attempt
Interesting write up about this...further clarifies run v pass blocking...think about world class bench pressers as you read, they all have big chests and short arms...

Quote:
Why does Arm Length Matter?
On a running play, an offensive lineman fires off the ball and either engages the defender over him or moves to a space that is his responsibility in order to find a defender. Generally the first contact between the offensive lineman and the defensive lineman is made by the shoulder pads (sometimes the helmet), but this should be followed immediately by the hands.

Strong offensive linemen deliver a punch with their hands and then they are supposed to grab the jersey inside the framework of the shoulder pads. Guys who are strong enough can then push the defender back (effectively standing him up) by "bench pressing" him. Once you have your arms extended with grasp of his jersey, the defender is almost completely at your mercy. Arm length helps here because you get a little more distance between yourself and the defender once you have "bench-pressed" him.

Arm length is more critical in pass blocking than in run blocking. At the snap on passing downs, you will see offensive linemen take at least one step backward and get in a body position called a "pass set". In this position your back should be straight, your knees should be bent, your feet should be slightly wider than shoulder-width apart, your hands should be in close to your chest with your elbows bent and your weight should be on the balls of your feet. You are awaiting the charge of the defensive player. Once he nears you, the first thing that should contact him are your hands, delivering what is effectively a two-handed punch to his chest.

A well-executed punch should allow you to stop his forward momentum and you should grab a hold of his jersey - locking your arms out and keeping him squarely in front of you (if you have quick enough feet). Again having long arms here, gives you more separation from the defender. In a battle where inches and portions of a second matter, the difference between an OT with 32" arms and one with 36" arms gets magnified greatly. Most (but not all as we will see later) OT's in college who have short arms get moved to OG in the NFL.


Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:51 pm
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Post Re: Mock Draft-First Attempt
quote from Q Nelson:

Coach Hiestand developed me into the player I am today. He harps on the fundamentals of the game, more so than the scheme. He’s given me all the fundamentals and I believe in the techniques that he taught me. I’m so thankful to have been coached by him. I’ve put a little thought into the possibility of him coaching me again, but I don’t want to get my hopes too high then not get drafted there. I know I can go anywhere that needs a guard.


about going top 10 which is unusual for a guard

I think I should be the exception because you’ve got guys in the NFL at defensive tackle like Fletcher Cox, who just had a great game against the Falcons in the playoffs, and Aaron Donald who tears up every single offensive line he goes against. Blocking those guys is very important in both the run game and the passing game. When they line up on the d-line they’re the closest to the quarterback so you need people to block those guys. And I think my work ethic and determination to be the best will make me a great player at the next level as well.


Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:33 pm
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