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Mock Draft-First Attempt 
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Post Re: Mock Draft-First Attempt
Yogi da Bear wrote:
Chris Williams had a solid career? You mean that one season he started for the Rams?

Bellamy and Acho might not "belong" as starters in regular sets but they have certainly proved they can fill in there. They've both performed better in regular sets than Chrissie Williams ever did.



Chris Williams played well enough at Guard that the Bills gave him a deal....got hurt up in Buffalo though

:"On March 12, 2014, Williams signed a four-year, $13.5 million contract with the Buffalo Bills. The deal includes $5.5 million in guaranteed money."


FAs get overpaid - True. He was only about average /slighty above average at Guard, even at his best - True as well.

He was also a Finesse Tackle that ,moved to Guard and played well enough to get that FA overpay....

And I think we'd both agree he's about as Finesse a tackle as you can get, no?


Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:50 pm
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Post Re: Mock Draft-First Attempt
Yeah . Dplank:

Now, what is the #1 reason why you hear that? Because of his BODY TYPE. Not because of his skill level, because of his BODY TYPE. Able to get by in college, but not the Pros...


This is in NO way at odds with my position. No way.

And also....you are incorrect (And it's NOT a height thing OR weight thing (* Most of the time on weight)

Arm length? Absolutely.

But Foot Speed. 1000% matters there. That's not body type. There is a degree of correlation of course. But if your guy is 6'5, 315. The guy with longer arms (body type to an extent) and the guy with better feet (NOT body type) are the guys they will say is a Tackle.

But yes....We seemingly do agree that the reason there are less good Tackles (and you seem to agree here) is because there are just markedly LESS guys with the physical attributes (MAINLY Footwork and Arm Length)

And thus you can get by playing the harder position at lower levels but not at higher levels


This is backed up by the number of Tackle to Guard conversions at EVERY Level. EVERY one. And the relatively few Guard to Tackle ones .

(save for the ones where they are protecting a less experienced player at Guard for a time and then moving him to Tackle..I.E. starting him at the relatively EASIER to play position . -
Like a Jon Ogden or Laremy Tunsil)

A Defensive End can line up right over the Tackle and go for the Bull Rush. Same quick initial contact and need to anchor as a Guard (** Yes, yes I know the relatively size of the DE v. DT albeit generally also quicker/faster too)...but that is 1000% a thing that happens in every football game

The need for longer arms and quicker feet (Though again - Longer Arms is better for ANY OL - it's a positive trait across the OL ) is in part due to the multiple avenues of attack you have on the outside v. the Inside

Hand usage matters too (though neither of us has spoken of that)....it's largely technique, and it matters for every OL position as well - Not sure tied to physical measureables (generally)


It's not like its an ADVANTAGE for a Guard to have shorter arms - We can agree there right?

Thus the question is why they can more easily get away with shorter arms on the inside. Your take is that Guard might be harder? Doesn't actually seem supported by that. Yes, yes case by case. Some exceptions yadda yadda. The overall data though? States that T can become G not vice versa.

I guess your take is that it's purely body type. I'm stating I disagree with that on various levels.


Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:16 pm
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Post Re: Mock Draft-First Attempt
Dude, Williams was switched to guard with us halfway through 2010. He spent the last half year there and half of 2011 before he was hurt again. In 2012 he was relegated to the bench and cut and signed by the Rams. He played 16 games for the Rams in '13, signed with the Bills and played three games. And then was done. If that's a "solid career" at guard, then your definition of a "solid career" and mine are at VASTLY different ends of the spectrum.

Two half years of starting at guard for the Bears before being demoted and then cut, one full year of starting for the Rams, and three games of starting for the Bills does NOT make a "SOLID CAREER" no matter how you want to slice it. If you think that, then you must think that Acho is a fucking Hall of Famer. He's got nearly as many starts for the Bears in just the last three years as Chris Williams had at guard for his entire career. Hell, even Bellamy has had damn near as many starts for the Bears as Williams did at guard for us before he was demoted and cut. Hell, I only watch the Bears as a fan and I've had about as good a career as Williams has. Solid career my ass. :insane:


Last edited by Yogi da Bear on Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:24 pm
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Post Re: Mock Draft-First Attempt
Quote:
Williams' arms measured 33 inches at the 2008 combine. They were measured at 327/8 at the Senior Bowl that year. And one team measured his left arm at 311/4 inches and his right at 331/2.

You normally want a first-round left tackle to have 34-inch arms or longer.


The failure here was ever putting him at tackle to begin with. He played there in college but had no business playing there in the pro's.

You can keep hanging on to this point all you like, I'm not gonna keep on with it. But dude, you're wrong on this one. Try to recall the lesson of the Glennon thing you got stuck on before last draft, and leave open the possibility that you're missing it here too.

You can't play fantasy football with these guys and move them around. Certain guys can only play certain positions, generally dictated by physical attributes. Length is good for tackles, height isn't the only determination of length. Power is a bigger attribute in Guards generally, and Guards are typically shorter than Tackles FOR A REASON. Some tackles can move inside of course but that's not a given, it's more of an abnormality, despite the number of times you cite the same example of Chris Williams who, again, despite his height was a short armed Guard all along...we misplaced him.

And remember, last time we argued about this was about Whitehair. My point was validated as ultimately correct, as countless people came on this board after watching him flounder at Guard bitching that we just need to leave him in one place and let him excel there. Whitehair suffered a serious setback this year, one reasonable explanation for his regression was all the moving around we did to him. It's the only reasonable explanation out there really, he wasn't hurt and by all rights should have played AT LEAST as good as he did as a rookie...but, he didn't.


Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:29 pm
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Post Re: Mock Draft-First Attempt
Yogi da Bear wrote:
Dude, Williams was switched to guard with us halfway through 2010. He spent the last half year there and half of 2011 before he was hurt again. In 2012 he was relegated to the bench and cut and signed by the Rams. He played 16 games for the Rams in '13, signed with the Bills and played three games. And then was done. If that's a "solid career" at guard, then your definition of a "solid career" and mine are at VASTLY different ends of the spectrum.

Two half years of starting at guard for the Bears before being demoted and then cut, one full year of starting for the Rams, and three games of starting for the Bills does NOT make a "SOLID CAREER" no matter how you want to slice it. If you think that, then you must think that Acho is a fucking Hall of Famer. He's got nearly as many starts for the Bears in just the last three years as Chris Williams had at guard for his entire career. Hell, even Bellamy has had damn near as many starts for the Bears as Williams did at guard for us before he was demoted and cut. Hell, I only watch the Bears as a fan and I've had about as good a career as Williams has. Solid career my ass. :insane:



Hey....fair enough on the career - ended early due to injuries. FIne

Solid couple of years at Guard though - And he was better at Guard than Tackle.

That I think you'd agree with - better at Guard than Tackle, yes?


Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:39 am
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Post Re: Mock Draft-First Attempt
dplank wrote:
Quote:
Williams' arms measured 33 inches at the 2008 combine. They were measured at 327/8 at the Senior Bowl that year. And one team measured his left arm at 311/4 inches and his right at 331/2.

You normally want a first-round left tackle to have 34-inch arms or longer.


The failure here was ever putting him at tackle to begin with. He played there in college but had no business playing there in the pro's.

You can keep hanging on to this point all you like, I'm not gonna keep on with it. But dude, you're wrong on this one. Try to recall the lesson of the Glennon thing you got stuck on before last draft, and leave open the possibility that you're missing it here too.

You can't play fantasy football with these guys and move them around. Certain guys can only play certain positions, generally dictated by physical attributes. Length is good for tackles, height isn't the only determination of length. Power is a bigger attribute in Guards generally, and Guards are typically shorter than Tackles FOR A REASON. Some tackles can move inside of course but that's not a given, it's more of an abnormality, despite the number of times you cite the same example of Chris Williams who, again, despite his height was a short armed Guard all along...we misplaced him.

And remember, last time we argued about this was about Whitehair. My point was validated as ultimately correct, as countless people came on this board after watching him flounder at Guard bitching that we just need to leave him in one place and let him excel there. Whitehair suffered a serious setback this year, one reasonable explanation for his regression was all the moving around we did to him. It's the only reasonable explanation out there really, he wasn't hurt and by all rights should have played AT LEAST as good as he did as a rookie...but, he didn't.



Did Whitehair end the year bad too? I didn't focus there - My question all along (and it was for RT which in fairness would have been an even bigger change) IF Whitehair did flounder - How long would it take to recover? Was it permanent? I think those are still open ended. Guard didn't seem great for him though

Why doesn't the Whitehair thing LAST year matter too in your analysis? They moved him to Center (From TACKLE) and he had never played there before - Played Great as a rookie

Glennon thing I was wrong about- Because I was giving Pace too much credit - But that's also ONE player....not systemic things

Guys going from High School to College and College to Pros...every year, ARENT converting into Mike Glennon.....Tackle to Guard. Basically Always


Plenty of Guards and Tackles have similar heights weights BTW. The arm length thing IS a thing of course (Though you never acknowledged the fact that longer arms are good for ALL OL) but footwork/speed is the other key component which is not measured.

Guards being 6'0 290 isn't the ideal. It's a product of the lack of OL Talent out there (As we both agree guys who are 6'4 325 who can move are a super limited resource)


Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:49 am
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Post Re: Mock Draft-First Attempt
ok Rich. I'm just going to drop this for you since you aren't capable of doing so yourself. geezus (sorry Wanne)

I love getting football lessons from people who never played. :roll:

Maybe try reading this article from the national football post, it's pretty good. Notice how when they talk about the physical traits of different lineman they talk about arm length for tackles, but not for guards. Guards need to be stockier, lower, more powerful.

But anyhow, read if you want or don't but I'm just gonna let this one die on the vine.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/scouting-the-offensive-line/


Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:22 am
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Post Re: Mock Draft-First Attempt
dplank wrote:
ok Rich. I'm just going to drop this for you since you aren't capable of doing so yourself. geezus (sorry Wanne)

I love getting football lessons from people who never played. :roll:

Maybe try reading this article from the national football post, it's pretty good. Notice how when they talk about the physical traits of different lineman they talk about arm length for tackles, but not for guards. Guards need to be stockier, lower, more powerful.

But anyhow, read if you want or don't but I'm just gonna let this one die on the vine.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/scouting-the-offensive-line/



Simple Question: Is Arm Length a positive or a negative for ANY position on the OL?

I specifically have heard a HOF Guard talk about his arm length as a key aspect of his play. (And of course common sense backs this up - Guards lacking ideal Arm Length is something you can GET AWAY WITH, not SOMETHING YOU WANT)

(Does John Hannah count as a guy who played the game? How much QB do I have had to have played to know Mike Glennon is bad at it? Just let me know.)

Guards usually need to be more powerful (though again - Power/Strength is a positive for ANY OL)....However, as noted (and you agree with), Strength is (relatively) the easiest thing to put on for a OL.......ESPECIALLY since the thing you tend to be selling out (Footspeed and Agility) to gain that additional strength is NOT as necessary to play Guard. Hence one of the reasons you can move Tackles easier to Guard. Just one of many reasons.

(and that's before you get to Scheme oriented Guards - but that is a step beyond this conversation)



Also love your body type article TREV. So Guards are ideally 6'3 to 6'5 and Tackles are ideally 6'4 to 6'6. Wow what a difference!!!!!

And he's the nut of why it's harder to play Tackle (common sense): "Tackles on many occasions only have help on the inside but a guard has help on both sides. "

Basic shit.


Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:56 pm
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Post Re: Mock Draft-First Attempt
dplank wrote:
ok Rich. I'm just going to drop this for you since you aren't capable of doing so yourself. geezus (sorry Wanne)


lol...atta boy.


Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:17 pm
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Post Re: Mock Draft-First Attempt
dplank wrote:
The failure here was ever putting him at tackle to begin with.


No the failure was drafting him at all.

Better picks we could have had that are in the general area of where we picked:

Dominique Rodgers Cromartie

Braden Alberts

Joe Flacco

Aqib Talib

He was simply not a good football player.


Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:08 pm
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