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Bears not a good landing spot 
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Post Re: Bears not a good landing spot
Howard isn't "making a difference" even though he's on track to be top 5 in rushing for the second year in a row?

I think people should come to the agreement about what a "difference maker" is if such a debate can be expected to go anywhere.

For instance, if a skill position player is top 5 at his position in the entire league, he should maybe qualify.

Or is it just big plays we're concerned with?
Because then I think Cohen probably qualifies.

Personally, I think we're coming into a pretty strong nucleus of young players. Injuries are a mitigating factor sure, but all you can do is keep adding depth to ameliorate such losses in the future.
Trubisky is the biggest unknown, but what I've seen from Floyd, Goldman, Whitehair, Amos/Jackson, Howard, Cohen, and others, it appears Pace has some idea what he's doing in the draft.

You're getting better ROI than you were with Emery, that's for sure. Id like to let it play out under a new HC and see how it goes.

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Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:08 am
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Post Re: Bears not a good landing spot
The talent was somewhat bare when Pace arrived - Jeffrey, Marshall and Bennett are all significantly more talented than the players that replaced them (as an example). Jay's contract was an issue, but he was certainly more talented than Mike Glennon and it's too soon to tell on Mitch Trubisky OTHER than to say we can't know for sure if he's a franchise QB in waiting based on what we've seen. Pace (and Fox) made the decision to "improve the culture" by ridding the team of players they felt weren't of the right mindset. Pace failed to replace them - at WR in particular - with suitable alternatives.

More to the point, even with bad rosters, teams should be MUCH better after 3 years than the Bears are under Pace's watch. He owns 12-32 right alongside Fox - what we saw last Sunday falls at the coaches feet AND the front office's doorstep. No amount of rationalizing or wishing changes that. I'm not going to go as far as Gibron (who isn't a Bear fan - he's a fan of their opponent this Sunday) and claim that the Bears job isn't coveted or that Cleveland is in a better spot than the Bears - but Pace has not, based on the only thing that matters (results), done a particularly good job.

Also, the "CORE" that I referenced has two front line players - Howard and Hicks. Everyone else is either ok (Goldman, Whitehair) or a projection. There isn't a game changing stud (as of now) in the group (if Floyd can ever stay healthy, perhaps he emerges). After 3 years, and 3 picks in the top 10, that's inexcusable.

Assuming Pace returns, he's going to have to dramatically up his game. He has not been particularly savvy in how he manages the draft. 2 trade ups in the first round with no trade downs - no attempt to increase picks in the current and following year's drafts (other than 2016 when he added a bunch of 4th rounders that added up to virtually nothing), a key to revamping a roster. He's on the hook for a one pick trade up in the first round for a QB who is a major project when he could have stood pat and taken Watson, Mahomes or, most likely, Trubisky. He made one of the biggest scouting mistakes we'll ever see when he identified Mike Glennon as his bridge QB and gave him $18.5M. He could have signed Case Keenum for $2M. He could have kept Brian Hoyer. He has to do better - he has to take fewer projects like Trubisky and Shaheen and focus on taking good players from top division 1 programs (like JuJu Smith-Schuster - taken by the Steelers, a team with an infinitely better draft day record than Angelo, Emery and Pace combined).

Pace isn't stupid - seems like a sincere, hard working guy. He was a coveted GM prospect - much more so than Gibron's guy Chris Ballard, who hadn't been on anyone's radar until the Bears interviewed him. None of that, however, meant that he knew how to put a winning roster together. None of it meant that he was a shrewd operator. So far, he has failed,on both counts.


Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:15 am
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Post Re: Bears not a good landing spot
One thing on last week; it's not totally out of the realm of possibility that the Bears are tanking on purpose because they know the probable windfall of picks they might get for one of those top QBs.

Fox is going to get paid either way. His end-of-game management would almost suggest such a strategy "we felt good about blocking the FG" .

So the trade-back for picks that Art just referenced may well be on the horizon.

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Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:19 am
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Post Re: Bears not a good landing spot
A couple of thoughts...

* I don' t believe the Bears are purposely "tanking." Fox is just out of gas. His approach to the game since Trubisky took over has been to try to bore opponents to death, limit turnovers, and hope his defense could generate enough turnovers to win. He's been, imo, trying to save his job the only way he knows how. They've done little to develop Mitch - which includes allowing him to make mistakes. They've turned him into a cowardly imp.

* I HOPE - whether it's Pace (likely) or someone else - that the Bears turn their 4th straight top 10 pick, and possible second straight top 5 pick, into more picks in 2018 AND 2019. Given the number of QB needy teams, and the number of QB's coming out, it's certainly possible.


Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:27 am
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Post Re: Bears not a good landing spot
artbest wrote:
The talent was somewhat bare when Pace arrived - Jeffrey, Marshall and Bennett are all significantly more talented than the players that replaced them (as an example). Jay's contract was an issue, but he was certainly more talented than Mike Glennon and it's too soon to tell on Mitch Trubisky OTHER than to say we can't know for sure if he's a franchise QB in waiting based on what we've seen. Pace (and Fox) made the decision to "improve the culture" by ridding the team of players they felt weren't of the right mindset. Pace failed to replace them - at WR in particular - with suitable alternatives.

More to the point, even with bad rosters, teams should be MUCH better after 3 years than the Bears are under Pace's watch. He owns 12-32 right alongside Fox - what we saw last Sunday falls at the coaches feet AND the front office's doorstep. No amount of rationalizing or wishing changes that. I'm not going to go as far as Gibron (who isn't a Bear fan - he's a fan of their opponent this Sunday) and claim that the Bears job isn't coveted or that Cleveland is in a better spot than the Bears - but Pace has not, based on the only thing that matters (results), done a particularly good job.

Also, the "CORE" that I referenced has two front line players - Howard and Hicks. Everyone else is either ok (Goldman, Whitehair) or a projection. There isn't a game changing stud (as of now) in the group (if Floyd can ever stay healthy, perhaps he emerges). After 3 years, and 3 picks in the top 10, that's inexcusable.

Assuming Pace returns, he's going to have to dramatically up his game. He has not been particularly savvy in how he manages the draft. 2 trade ups in the first round with no trade downs - no attempt to increase picks in the current and following year's drafts (other than 2016 ...


What?

I’m 2016 he traded down (twice if I remember) to get multiple picks back for his trade up for Floyd, and got Whitehair still in the second.

In 2017, he did the same thing in trading back in the second round for Shaheen, and recouping most of the draft picks list from the trubisky move up.

So yes, when he traded up, he made other trades to recoup the picks later. Now, for this year, if I’m not mistaken, he ended up going from a Bears 2018 third rounder to a 2018 cards fourth rounder. Given both teams are within 4 picks of each other, right now, that’s roughly. 1 round drop.

So I. The end, taking paces draft moves on the whole, he got the QB he wanted, and the TE he wanted, for the cost of dropping one round in the 2018 draft.

Again, I don’t know if either are going to pan out yet, none of us do, but that is not a major high risk move.

But I think this a good move for a team that is looking to build a core talent base more in the 2018 season.


I am a believer that teams poor for decades take 3-4 seasons with high draft picks to rebuild...I get we all want to win now, and I paid good money to go to the game this Sunday, and I want it to be an exciting game and the bears dominate...

But I’m not going to pretend that you can drag the bears out of the depths of drafting suckage they have been in for the last 10 years, and expect to have a dramatic impact.

Think about guys that were top two pics here previously...Gabe Carimi, Chris Williams, Jarron Gilbert, major Wright, Corey Wooten, juaaquin iglesias, Stephen paea, Shea McClellan, Etc...


Gotta throw cutler in there too, because he was the reason we didn’t have some #1 picks along the way...but the cupboard was beyond bare. Not only did we lack 1st round picks, our first round picks were generally not just “under achievers” they were flat out busts. That’s like 4-5 years worth of no first round picks between the cutler trade and our totals busts.

That’s why the talent gap is where it is. You don’t recover from that in 2-3 years, IMHO.

D


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Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:39 am
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Post Re: Bears not a good landing spot
Cinci - he never traded back in the first round - the key to accumulating multiple high picks in the current and the following years drafts.

More to the point, the Bears only had 5 picks in 2017...with no 3rd round pick. They did have 9 picks in 2016, but, as I indicated, all the extra picks were in the 4th round...and none have stood out to date. In 2015, they had 6 picks.

So, despite having 2 bona-fide top 10 picks - the 3rd pick in 2017 and the 7th pick in 2015, the Bears have not leveraged that draft position to accumulate multiple picks in the third round and higher. Their trade downs have led to primarily to extra 4th rounders. They currently, if I'm not mistaken, have no 3rd round pick in 2018.

And where are the Bears after 3 years? 12-32. They need to completely revamp their Wr corps. They have injury and age issues at OG. They desperately need a new right tackle and their left tackle, whom Pace gave an extension, is so-so. We don't know if they have a competent TE. Outside of the oft-injured Leonard Floyd, they need to revamp their OLB's. They will need to add 1-2 new starting CB's.

By recent NFL standards, Pace hasn't, to date, gotten the job done - the results simply don't support views to the contrary. Again - if Pace returns, he MUST show dramatic improvement.


Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:53 am
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Post Re: Bears not a good landing spot
I actually agree with both of you. We should be ascending at this point and we aren't, and Pace is not absolved of all blame here. He botched some stuff, notably at WR where he drafted poorly and let talent walk without replacing it.

On the flip side, it's true that we've sucked hard for a long time and drafted so incredibly poorly that expecting a winning result by now is probably unrealistic. I think poor coaching and an injury tsunami have a lot to do with that.

So Pace, in my view, gets a pass for now as he seems to have drafted pretty well - that's a new thing for us around here. He also got our franchise QB, we hope, so if he's the right guy then Pace will be ultimately vindicated IMO.

I want to see one more year with a modern coaching staff and a more normal slew of injuries, not like what we've seen these last few years which is just nuts.


Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:06 pm
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Post Re: Bears not a good landing spot
CinciBearFan wrote:
In 2017, he did the same thing in trading back in the second round for Shaheen, and recouping most of the draft picks list from the trubisky move up.

So yes, when he traded up, he made other trades to recoup the picks later.

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the deal was worse than u make out

first of all, he probably didn't need to make it...he got bluffed and was desperate (as usual)

he gave up 2 very high 3s (and yes, those are valuable high picks...1 this draft and they need it) and a 4th

his trade down netted him a 2 4ths (1 this year) and a 6th, but he gave up a 7th

he then traded up to get Jackson and lost the 6th

+ how about his "rookie year" deal when he traded a 6th round pick for UDFA Khari Lee whom was small and slow and hadn't played in the NFL yet? how'd that crazy deal work out? :duh:

this guy moves around a lot, but he doesn't get much traction...by year 3 the team should be more competitive, but his mistakes have them collapsing after the bye when the schedule was said to be easier


Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:13 pm
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Post Re: Bears not a good landing spot
He gave up a 7th for Inman because, you know, we had no warm bodies at the WR position. Actually, not a bad move IMO.


Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:10 am
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Post Re: Bears not a good landing spot
Howard's a very good back ( and I said I give Pace credit fir that)but what difference has he made the past 2 weeks or the past 5 weeks for that matter? Cohen has big play ability but he also suffers from dumb Devin syndrome so no, he is not yet a difference maker. Amos/Jackson? Really? We haven't heard a peep from Jackson since he had the 2 pick 6s. Our secondary, in case you haven't noticed STINKS! And that includes Jackson and Amos. All jackson has proven to be as of late is a human hurdle. And no we are not getting better ROI, we are 3-9.

Burl wrote:
Howard isn't "making a difference" even though he's on track to be top 5 in rushing for the second year in a row?

I think people should come to the agreement about what a "difference maker" is if such a debate can be expected to go anywhere.

For instance, if a skill position player is top 5 at his position in the entire league, he should maybe qualify.

Or is it just big plays we're concerned with?
Because then I think Cohen probably qualifies.

Personally, I think we're coming into a pretty strong nucleus of young players. Injuries are a mitigating factor sure, but all you can do is keep adding depth to ameliorate such losses in the future.
Trubisky is the biggest unknown, but what I've seen from Floyd, Goldman, Whitehair, Amos/Jackson, Howard, Cohen, and others, it appears Pace has some idea what he's doing in the draft.

You're getting better ROI than you were with Emery, that's for sure. Id like to let it play out under a new HC and see how it goes.


Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:09 am
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